Dr. Justin Allen Rose on North Korea, Christianity, and America

Dr. Justin Allen Rose, a political scientist and media analyst, discusses the intersection of faith, politics, and authoritarianism within the U.S. and overseas. He explores spiritual devotion and political allegiance, noting how dogma and punishment reinforce management in Christian nationalism and North Korea alike. Rose examines biblical literalism’s position in laws, citing State Senator Dusty Deevers and Trump’s Christian bias initiatives as proof of religion-driven policymaking. He warns of a post-constitutional America the place free thought is suppressed, and legal guidelines more and more mirror evangelical ideology. Finally, he underscores the hazard of blind religion and its societal penalties.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So as we speak, we’re right here with Dr. Justin Allen Rose, a political science researcher, lecturer, and media analyst in america. He earned his PhD in political science on the College of Tennessee, Knoxville, the place he targeted on social media’s affect on political polarization. Rose is enormously within the intersection of faith and politics, analyzing how religion shapes political conduct and opinions. He’s presently a journalist residing in Oklahoma. Opposite to what one may assume from Free Inquiry journal, he was raised in a non secular city. Nonetheless, he comes from a nonreligious household and advocates for safeguarding civil liberties.

Thanks for becoming a member of me as we speak. I recognize it on such brief discover. Let’s dive into the primary query: What are the important thing similarities between spiritual devotion and political allegiance in authoritarian regimes? The elemental foundation for each is spiritual or political dogma.

Dr. Justin Allen Rose: Sure. That may be a excellent query to start out with.

And also you’ll discover all through this dialog that I’m not afraid of tackling these subjects.

I do know you—I’ve seen your work earlier than. I don’t imply to backtrack or something, however I really like listening to and studying Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins. They’re actually mental figures. And whereas I’ve a PhD, I didn’t develop up in an instructional family. My dad dropped out of highschool. My mother has a highschool diploma.

So, in my language—you’re right here, I’m right here—I come from a blue-collar background.

I’m educated, however my language remains to be very blue-collar.

It actually does seem to be faith and political allegiance are one and the identical, particularly these days. In faith, folks maintain onto their beliefs it doesn’t matter what. I really like analyzing the logical processes that individuals undergo to succeed in their opinions and allegiances.

That’s what led me to review political psychology.

And that’s as a result of anytime you see it, this complete faith matter is considerably cyclical for me when it comes to curiosity. I write about it and examine it, after which I step away from it.

In some unspecified time in the future, you discuss to a non secular particular person—let’s discuss Christianity since we’re in America, and that’s the dominant spiritual framework right here—you attain a scenario the place you ask them a query a few contradiction you’ve seen, one thing that they logically can not totally assist.

Whether or not it’s an ethical dilemma or a textual inconsistency, they’ll typically reply with one thing like, “Well, you’re interpreting it wrong,” or, “God is mysterious.” It turns into a strategy to reinforce what they already imagine.

We see the identical phenomenon with political allegiances these days on each side. Amongst Republicans and Democrats—although to totally different levels—you typically see partisans treating their political affiliation like a sports activities crew. When a Democrat does one thing questionable, a hardcore Democrat will typically attempt to justify it, even when it contradicts their earlier opinions. The identical occurs with Republicans.

We see this sample clearly in political science and public opinion analysis. When folks devour data, they have an inclination to learn it in a method that reinforces their preexisting beliefs. If somebody already has a powerful opinion—whether or not it’s about God’s existence or their political occasion’s righteousness—they wrestle to confess they is likely to be incorrect.

That cognitive dissonance folks speak about? They don’t wish to really feel it. So, they’ll do something to mentally flip the change, convincing themselves that actuality isn’t what it seems to be. As an alternative, they could say, “The liberal elites are manipulating the narrative,” or, “They’re trying to deceive me.” Their precise ideas grow to be their model of actuality, and so they reject any contradiction as a fabricated lie.

Jacobsen: Now, in a latest article, you argued that Kim Jong Un and the Christian God (I’m uncertain whether or not you’re making a distinction between Catholicism and Protestantism right here) share comparable mechanisms of management over their followers.

So, how do you conceptually distinguish these types of management? And the way does this play out when one authority determine is a residing individual—like Kim Jong Un—whereas the opposite, just like the Christian God, is believed to be actual however stays intangible? Or, within the case of North Korea, how does the “dead dad and granddad” system operate in what Hitchens may name a “necrocracy”? A tripartite comparability—Kim Jong Un, and the deceased leaders of North Korea.

Rose: For me, the mechanisms of management all middle on getting folks to imagine in one thing unquestioningly. And in faith, the Christian God is God himself. In North Korea, Kim Jong Un is absolutely the authority. The mechanism of management is at all times punishment. The query turns into: what’s the consequence of not believing on this being?

This ties again to faith. Even inside Christianity, totally different sects maintain totally different beliefs about hell. Some imagine in everlasting damnation, whereas others assume nonbelievers exist aside from God. Regardless, of their minds, separation from God remains to be a type of punishment—whether or not it’s everlasting torment or non secular exile.

Punishment is at all times central. In Christianity, punishment means being despatched to hell. In North Korea, below Kim Jong Un, punishment means dying or being despatched to a focus camp. That’s the core mechanism I give attention to—punishment—as a result of that in the end compels folks to evolve.

Past punishment, there’s additionally the factor of solidarity. I can’t declare to know precisely what North Korean topics actually imagine of their hearts. However based mostly on previous analysis, historic patterns, and my reflections on perception programs, I see a recurring theme.

Even in oppressive teams—whether or not it’s a theocracy, a dictatorship, or a cult—folks typically stay loyal regardless of the hurt they endure. There’s a psychological profit to group belonging. We see this in political curiosity teams as nicely. The identical dynamic applies to Christianity:

It enforces perception by means of concern of punishment.

It fosters a way of solidarity, even when the idea system might hurt the person or society.

Now, I don’t separate the 2 very a lot after we examine devotion to a residing chief versus a deity. As I wrote in my article, let’s hypothetically assume, for argument’s sake, that God exists—setting apart any controversy.

Even when God isn’t an individual however an entity, perception in him shapes society. It influences legal guidelines, behaviours, and human interactions, simply as perception in Kim Jong Un dictates life in North Korea.

So, whether or not we view God as imaginary or actual, the comparability holds. It’s all about impact—how perception in a real-life dictator versus a deity influences human beings. If you happen to ever need me to elaborate on a selected level, simply ask. I do know my ideas can generally department off in a number of instructions.

Jacobsen: However you’ve one thing that many People have—way more than many Canadians—one thing that could be extra acquainted to older generations who left faith in North America than youthful generations who by no means had faith.

In a method, you’re culturally bilingual concerning faith and nonreligion. You perceive what spiritual folks imply after they say sure issues. It may be so simple as “God bless you,” primarily the secular equal of “Good luck.”

I don’t have any private attachment to that phrase, however I perceive the sentiment behind it. You grew up in a non secular atmosphere so to navigate each views. So, how do you distinguish between religion and blind religion?

From the angle of spiritual folks in america—Christians particularly—how do they differentiate the 2?

As a result of typically in spiritual debates—or what are referred to as debates—you’ll see folks pivot to “By faith, I mean trust. I trust that God is good.” It’s intelligent rhetoric however doesn’t add something substantive to the dialog.

Rose: I completely see the place you’re coming from. And yeah, that’s precisely why I lose curiosity within the battle between faith and nonreligion—it at all times comes all the way down to semantics. One minute, somebody claims to imply one factor, after which all of a sudden, “Oh, I didn’t mean that I meant this.”

Otherwise you get the argument that “Everyone has some kind of religion.” It may not be believing in God, however they’ll insist it’s nonetheless a faith.

That’s when phrases begin to lose that means. What are we even doing should you redefine phrases to justify your place? We’re not getting any nearer to the reality.

And that’s what I’m after—the reality of what’s really actual.

So, when it comes to religion versus blind religion—Sure, I did develop up in a nonreligious family. For the primary sixteen years of my life, I used to be born and raised in Virginia, which is a very totally different atmosphere from small-town Oklahoma, the place we moved once I turned 16.

In Virginia, we by no means actually talked about faith at residence. Sometimes, it will come up on TV, however that was about it. Faith wasn’t current in colleges. Then I moved to small-town Oklahoma, and it was a very totally different world. The highschool I graduated from was in a city one mile huge; inside that one mile, there have been six church buildings.

Faith and God had been talked about continuously in that atmosphere. I don’t assume negatively about that have as a result of I had fun at that faculty, but it surely was an odd expertise. As you talked about, I acquired to immerse myself in a very totally different tradition.

Take politics, for instance. My dad and mom at all times watched the information once I was rising up, so I heard their opinions. However by no means as soon as did I hear faith because the justification for his or her views. It was by no means, “I believe this because of my faith.”

Politics got here up at school as nicely—whether or not in conversations amongst college students and even when academics mentioned it. However once more, faith wasn’t an element. Then, in Oklahoma, it was utterly totally different. Nearly each political opinion gave the impression to be tied instantly again to faith, which was wild to expertise.

That sparked my curiosity. I needed to know how faith may form somebody’s worldview, regardless that for me, that wasn’t the case in any respect.

I don’t have that spiritual framework in my head. So why does this one perception affect each different perception they maintain? Now, stepping into religion versus blind religion— I don’t assume they see it as blind religion. Despite the fact that you and I’d classify it that method, they don’t contemplate it religion.

You see this on a regular basis on TikTok or different platforms. Folks ask, “How can you believe in something you haven’t seen?”Or, “You’re just reading words off a page—how do you believe in it without evidence?” However they genuinely assume they do have proof.

I noticed a video of a girl claiming that God appeared in her home, in her room, and that she was capable of hug God or Jesus—whichever entity she was referring to that day.

And actually, how do you argue in opposition to that? You possibly can’t. If they really imagine it, there’s nothing you possibly can say to fight that. You have got two prospects:

They’re mendacity to themselves or others as a result of they desperately wish to persuade folks (and themselves) that that is actual.

They honestly imagine it, which raises the query: Which is worse?

Is it scarier that they’ve misplaced their grip on actuality to that diploma? Or that they don’t imagine it—however are intentionally mendacity and can do no matter it takes to get others to imagine? Currently, I believe it’s extra of the latter—a calculated effort to push perception it doesn’t matter what. And we see that occuring by means of Christian nationalism. Oklahoma is the premier testing floor for that experiment.

Jacobsen: So, how do they use biblical literalism— by means of a totally literal studying or a selective literalist method—to consolidate energy and implement obedience?

Rose: I’m undecided how acquainted you’re with Oklahoma politics, however judging by the subject, I’ll go forward and title names—I don’t care.

Take Senator Dusty Deevers from Elgin, Oklahoma. If you happen to scroll by means of his X (previously Twitter) account, you’ll see biblical literalism on full show within the payments he’s making an attempt to cross by means of the Oklahoma legislature.

For instance, he has proposed laws associated to abortion—I imagine he refers to it as chemical abortion, although not chemical castration. He’s additionally pushing payments focusing on same-sex marriage and different points according to Christian nationalist ideology.

Now, you’d count on a deeply spiritual individual—particularly a pastor-turned-politician—to legislate based mostly on his beliefs. And that’s precisely what he’s doing. This all ties again to punishment, whether or not in Christianity or North Korea.

When Christian nationalists like Deevers draft laws, they typically body it when it comes to God’s will. The underlying thought is that legal guidelines ought to punish these deviating from their Christian interpretation.

Deevers is an open Christian nationalist—he wrote a manifesto on the topic earlier than he was even elected. So, he’s not simply pandering when he pushes these legal guidelines—he genuinely believes in his actions.

And I can say this with some certainty as a result of I’ve spoken to Senator Deevers in his workplace earlier than. After we had been discussing coverage—purely political points—you wouldn’t have guessed he was a pastor. However the second he talked about God, his complete demeanor modified. You might see it in his eyes.

Now, some folks argue that politicians like Deevers are simply utilizing faith as a instrument for energy. That’s a good argument. However there’s one other risk—a few of these folks actually imagine every thing they’re saying and genuinely wish to implement it—not simply in Oklahoma however nationwide.

And that’s a strong factor to witness—the shift in his eyes, his power—when he speaks about faith. If somebody like Deevers actually believes in biblical literalism, then he’ll do every thing in his energy to implement what he thinks the Bible calls for.

The Bible means that if a land doesn’t comply with God’s will, it will likely be punished. Conversely, if a nation embraces God, it’s going to prosper. If Deevers believes that actually, then his legislative efforts—banning homosexual marriage, outlawing abortion, and imposing Christian ethical codes—are all a part of his mission.

By no means thoughts the contradictions within the Bible itself—like God wiping out complete populations within the Nice Flood—as a result of biblical literalists hardly ever deal with these inconsistencies. Nonetheless, the important thing takeaway is that we’re witnessing real-life biblical literalism in motion.

Some folks, sure, are utilizing Christian nationalism for energy. However once more, I really imagine that some folks genuinely imagine each phrase of the Bible and are appearing on it. Dusty Deevers is considered one of them. And that brings us proper again to the query—which is worse?

Is it extra harmful when somebody doesn’t imagine in biblical literalism however nonetheless tries to implement it for political acquire? Or is it worse when somebody actually believes each phrase of the Bible and tries to legislate it into actuality? Both method, this ideology impacts extra than simply Oklahoma—we now see it on the federal degree.

Take Trump’s latest initiatives, for instance. His administration has been forming committees and teams devoted to rooting out so-called ‘anti-Christian bias’ throughout the federal authorities.

Jacobsen: However we all know that’s not occurring. If something, we’ve seen the other—for a very long time, there was a pro-Christian bias in American politics.

Rose: All of those efforts fly within the face of actuality. They contradict all of the obtainable proof. So, what’s the aim? It’s signalling about letting the so-called “good Christian people” know they’re on their aspect.

And if we put aside the courts and the facility of Congress for a second, we appear to be creeping towards a post-constitutional stage—the place checks and balances are dropping effectiveness. Sure, technically, we nonetheless have checks and balances. That’s the go-to response when somebody factors out {that a} president—whether or not Trump or anybody else—is overreaching. Folks say, “Don’t worry, we have the courts, we have Congress—they’ll push back.”

However we’re not seeing that. For many years, Congress has willingly handed increasingly energy over to the manager department, and now, it’s on full show. So, after we speak about a post-constitutional period and what which means for Christian nationalism, it doesn’t bode nicely for many who don’t subscribe to their spiritual ideology.

And what does that imply for my household? My spouse is an atheist, identical to me. My daughter is barely two years outdated, however what is going to life seem like when she grows up if we’re nonetheless in Oklahoma? As a result of, for my part, the Bible—and Christianity on the whole—is deeply anti-woman. That’s clear as day to me.

So, if literal biblical interpretations begin shaping our legal guidelines—whether or not on the state degree in Oklahoma or on the federal degree—what does that imply? What does that imply for ladies? What does that imply for nonbelievers?

And that is one thing I believe many individuals fail to know. Being an atheist isn’t a selection—it’s not about eager to be an atheist or eager to reject faith. No. It’s about studying the Bible, listening to the arguments, and saying: “I don’t buy it.”

It’s not as if I can get up tomorrow and say, “You know what?” I may say, “I believe in God.” It’s all day lengthy. However would that make it true?

As a result of I might at all times have that doubt, and I really imagine—most likely at all times, although I received’t say at all times with absolute certainty—that it’s not true. That perception is exterior of my management.

And that ties proper again into the argument: If God created everybody and made them the way in which they’re, then He made me this fashion—to ship me to hell?

Jacobsen: What are the largest parallels between the specified Christian nation of many Protestants—significantly white evangelical Christians in america—and authoritarian North Korea?

Rose: Uniform thought. All of it goes again to the First Modification—freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and the power to purpose freely on this nation.

To really management whether or not somebody believes in God or something—a political occasion, a social ideology—it’s important to management the movement of data. The extra this nation strikes towards what they name a Christian nation or a Christian nationalist state, the larger the push will likely be to suppress dissenting voices.

We’ll see elevated efforts to ban articles, shut down media corporations, and prohibit books from libraries as a result of that’s the way you management folks. I’m certain—I’ve by no means been to North Korea—however I extremely doubt they’ve huge, uncensored libraries on each nook.

Jacobsen: Dr. Rose, thanks very a lot to your time as we speak. It was beautiful to fulfill you.

Rose: Let me know anytime you wish to discuss. Bye.

Jacobsen: Thanks. Bye-bye.

—

Scott Douglas Jacobsen is the writer of In-Sight Publishing (ISBN: 978-1-0692343) and Editor-in-Chief of In-Sight: Interviews (ISSN: 2369-6885). He writes for The Good Males Venture, The Humanist, Worldwide Coverage Digest (ISSN: 2332-9416), Fundamental Earnings Earth Community (UK Registered Charity 1177066), A Free Inquiry, and different media. He’s a member in good standing of quite a few media organizations.

***

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